In this episode of Ambition Talks Tax Careers, Evelina Panchal shares her journey from Senior Manager to Tax Director at Blick Rothenberg. She discusses the key steps in preparing for this transition, the importance of understanding the director role, and the necessity of networking and personal development.
Evelina emphasises the significance of having a supportive sponsor and being aware of the business case for promotion. She also highlights the day-to-day responsibilities of a director and the value of investing in training and development for career growth.
Key takeaways
Career progression is a journey, not an overnight decision.
Building leadership skills is essential for moving to Director level.
Understanding the type of director you want to be is crucial.
Engaging with performance managers early can clarify the promotion process.
Having a supportive sponsor can significantly impact your career advancement.
Financial scrutiny is a common aspect of director roles.
Networking within the firm is vital for success as a director.
Investing in personal development is key to effective leadership.
Directors must balance technical knowledge with commercial awareness.
Continuous learning and adaptation are important in a changing work environment.
Watch the full episode here
Episode transcript
Claire Cheung: Welcome to our Ambition Talks Tax careers podcast episode one. We're delighted to have Evelina Panchal join us today as our guest speaker to talk about her career transition from senior manager to director. Evelina, Corporate Tax Director. Hi Evelina, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.
Evelina Panchal: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.
Claire Cheung: Lovely. As mentioned, we will be talking about your exciting career transition as you move from senior manager to director. So the first thing that we do want to talk about is, when did you know you were ready to take the next step up from your career to director?
Evelina Panchal: Magic question. I wish I could say I went to bed one day thinking I'm ready to be a director the next day. But I don't think it's quite like that. I don't think it's quite like that for anyone, to be honest. You might know it from your conversations with various candidates as well, but I would probably describe it as a journey. You start early on, put in the work, and get involved in lots of different projects. Through the years, you build up your experience and other skills, like leadership skills, and there comes a point where you think, I should be having this conversation that I'd like to be a director.
The key step-ups from senior manager to director are that you are becoming a key driver, key account holder, and key relationship manager and owner. You're becoming a trusted advisor for them as well. They come to you with many explanations. They might have an employment issue, or they might just want to have a chat, and just want to have something with you so you are seen as somebody they trust and value your opinion for as well.
You also end up inadvertently picking up leadership roles within the team. It could be a Performance Manager, but it could be a people role like a chair for the people leader team, or it could be some sort of financial role for the team, looking after the finance strategy.
I was doing a number of those roles. I was very lucky in my career in various bands because I had the opportunity to get involved in lots of these things quite early on as well. That was brilliant for me, and I would encourage anyone to do that as well.
Another key element is, most directors and partners in particular are work winners for the firm. That's what we are in business for. You win a lot of work from existing clients, but you also build relationships with other clients through the connections they might have internally within the firm you work for or for the advertisers, like warfare, for example. That becomes a key part of your job. You are out there in the market when you work and helping.
Claire Cheung: And that is quite a big change. So listen to before you start thinking about moving into...
Evelina Panchal: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And I think it's not for everyone. I would say it's probably key to understand what kind of director you want to be, because at director level, you still have a little bit of a choice in most firms in that you can either be, they call it market-facing director.
So with the work deliver some of it as well, or you could be a really high technical director. If you love tax legislation and you love getting stuck into detail and delivering massive reports, you could be a trusted person within the firm who is known as a specialist for a particular subject, and that people would go to with various questions. You need people like that as well, because how will you do the work?
So I think that's one of the key things you need to distinguish and determine and then understand the fact of work where you currently are.
Claire Cheung: Thanks. So how did you actually gear yourself up for that transition from senior manager to director?
Evelina Panchal: There are a couple of things to consider. As I say, it's a bit of a journey. Through that journey, you observe the directors and partners in the team, and you start picturing what kind of director you might want to be.
People are kind of put into two categories, almost just to make the whole process a little bit easier. You tend to be either more market-facing and work-winning, or more high technical delivery. You are still expected to deliver work at the director level, but what your business case might look like changes a little bit, and that will help you determine what your business case is. You will have to come up with a business case for sure, and that will cover a number of aspects.
One of them will be, what is your role like? Are you doing more technical work? Are you working with clients? You'll also probably pick up a leadership role within the team because you will be in a leadership position. You might want to do something a bit more formal for the team. You might naturally have a big personality or opinions that you are seen as a leader anyhow, without having to do anything external, because you're very good at winning work, for example.
Everyone is a little bit different. I, for example, quite enjoyed having people roles. I am currently doing a people role for the team, which is still in transition. I would say, don't be shy about having conversations with the performance manager.
Try and do that early on, because then you'll know what you have to do, what the process might look like, and there will definitely be a process. Each firm has a slightly different process. Firms have a really long process that can take months. There are stages, quite formalised stages throughout the year that certain things need to be done by deeper work panels before actual panels. Understanding what you are getting yourself into and what will be involved will be really helpful, because it might take a whole year to actually just prepare for it, and then another year to actually go through it.
Definitely have a conversation with your performance manager, understand what that looks like, and also gauge from your feedback what you need to work on to get there as well. Everyone has development points and strengths, and part of the process is trying to work on those as well and put yourself in the best light, but also come away with a plan. This is how I'll do this.
A director sponsor is another key. You definitely need to find yourself someone who will be willing to invest the time in your process and getting you up to the director level. It's time-consuming for them as well. Find someone you trust, someone who believes in you, and someone who is the support that you need to help you get there.
There will definitely be a lot of financial scrutiny. Make sure you understand what you will need to track the revenues, profit margins, etc., but understand what those packets are that you need to get yourself to understand what information you might need to gather, because that can be quite tricky to obtain sometimes. Are your sponsors or management upfront with actually sharing their information?
Claire Cheung: Are they quite upfront with actually sharing their information?
Evelina Panchal: Yes, if they're bought into your case, and they want you to succeed in it. They are completely behind you, and they will be sharing the information. Obviously, it's not going to be shared with everyone, but to help you get there, to help you demonstrate what you need to demonstrate, they are really helpful. They'll put you in contact with finance teams, give you tips, etc.
Build that network, not just with the sponsor, but a wider network, perhaps with other senior managers that have been through the process just recently, or that are going through the process with you, maybe in a different department, or could be in the same department as well.
Don't be shy about having those conversations. I know everyone is different, and some people are quite comfortable talking about it, and some people are less comfortable talking about it, because if you're not successful, you know people will know, but they will be perceived by the team. I totally understand that as well, but I think it's important to remember that there's a personal case that you are protecting for yourself, but it has to be the business case as well.
People who have tried to go for it through various career steps in their firms will know what I mean, and that you might be ready as a person. But maybe business hasn't done so well, or maybe there are groups in each department, they will have a limited number of business cases that they can offer each department.
Sometimes, you can be ready as much as you can, but there might not be a business case for you as well, so be ready and prepared for that. If you are going for that, make sure that you do your absolute utmost best, because otherwise, which I have known people do, and it is quite frustrating, and it's quite draining as well, and emotionally draining, because you are putting a lot of feelings, you're always there, and then all of a sudden, it's like no.
Evelina Panchal: Exactly. So that question that you ask, being ready, and when do I know? It's so tricky, because you might know, but it might not quite work out, because of the business case. But I think all you can do is be ready yourself, knowing that you have achieved what you need to achieve, believing in yourself, practicing your panel runs, if that's what you need to do, but trying to be as comfortable as you can with it.
If you feel comfortable, you will come across as a director, because you have built that confidence and belief in yourself.
It also takes time. Before you go through it, you want to make sure that you are ready for it and you can accept that things might not go quite well necessarily, because of the business list, for example, but you will do your absolute best to succeed and put your best foot forward.
Claire Cheung: That's some really good tips tips because you don't normally get to see this side...
Evelina Panchal: No. And that's a good point to raise. There's typically a formal process for junior grades where people go for exams, and they automatically get promoted to assistant manager. Then there is a bit more structure, from assistant manager to manager to senior manager. These are not the senior leadership roles, but there is a bit more transparency as to how that works because more people will have gone through it as well.
When it comes to director and partner promotions, there's an understanding that it is involved. But not every firm is completely transparent as to what happens. Some of my previous firms have suggested putting webinars for the senior manager population to explain the process and make them familiar with it, which I think is a great idea. Otherwise, you are trying to work out what needs to happen when.
A lot of times, there's only one promotion cycle, and if you miss it, you have to wait for the next cycle, which could be two years. So you want to start thinking about it earlier if that is your ambition and have those conversations earlier. It's not for everyone. I know lots of great senior managers and associate directors who are juggling other things or just enjoy being at that level.
Sometimes people go for Director because that's what is expected, but you should be comfortable that you want to do that because a big change will happen when you become a director.
Claire Cheung: This probably brings me to the next point: the role. Tell me about your new role, and what do you get to do on a day-to-day basis?
Evelina Panchal: The biggest difference is that, depending on the firm you work for, you are essentially signing out advice. Sometimes you are the final sign-out point, and sometimes others review it. Sometimes there is a more formal process where the partner has to review it before anything goes to the client. But irrespective of that, the expectation is that whatever you're presenting, if it needs to be reviewed, is pretty much ready to be sent. You are working to really high standards and very much from the client's perspective. If I am a client and I'm receiving this, does it make sense? Is it too technical? Does it make any sense? You find yourself having to manage quite a lot of stakeholders.
If you are working on a project that requires inputs from various specialists, you are reviewing the report to bring it all together. You will end up going back and forth, making sure it reads well, that we are recommending clear, succinct actions, and that it makes sense. A lot of that is not so much even knowing your technical stuff but being commercial, practical, and pragmatic. You want to help clients and give them good advice that adds value. Just giving them lots of information isn't helpful. You need to recommend things.
As a director, you have to look into those details. Does it help them add value? That perspective really becomes important at the director level. I spend a lot of time speaking to clients, and I love that. New clients and targets, just trying to see how we can help them if they need any advice on anything, spotting opportunities as well. A good example I had recently: they wanted some structuring advice, but it transpired that they also wanted personal tax advice, customs advice because they will be shipping various parts, and international tax advice because they will work cross-border. All of a sudden, you add all of those little bits, but you need to have the awareness to be able to do that.
That's a key attribute of being a director. You're not just doing your specialist work; you're also bringing in other work. Clients might talk to you and say, I'm struggling with this. Sometimes you can give them common sense advice straight away, but sometimes you need to think about it because it can get quite complex. Being a trusted advisor is a big part of your job. I am also a people manager for the team and taking on a bigger role. I have been enrolled in a program called Evolve, which is about helping you understand your leadership skills. We use this insights profile to understand how others might react to you. It's all about self-awareness and being able to think about your role. It involves steps in terms of how the firm works with directors. It's great, and I'm really excited about that. It looks like it's going to be a big role for you.
Evelina Panchal: It's definitely an exciting program. If you get the opportunity to do anything like that, take it. Different firms operate at different levels. Typically, when you move from manager to senior manager, you'll get some sort of training. Every firm will have something different. Take those opportunities. You don't often get the chance to step back from your day job and assess what you're doing and think about your role. Take those opportunities as much as you can.
Claire Cheung: Just listening to you speak about how your role has transitioned, the soft aspect of things is very important. Whereas, as you mentioned, pre-manager roles are very much focused on your technical knowledge and ability from that angle. I think it's lovely to hear that Blick is actually investing in their people, providing training on that aspect, which will be helpful in the long run.
Evelina Panchal: Yeah, absolutely. That was part of the reason why I chose Blick as my next employer. They invest a lot in training and development of employees, and they've grown substantially over the last few years. They've gone through a lot of changes since I joined, and changes are still happening. It's exciting to be part of the change. As a leader and director, I get an opportunity to influence how things are implemented and addressed. That was part of the attraction for joining the team. Other than that, there's such a variety of work. We work with owner-managed businesses and large listed businesses. It's exciting to have the opportunity to get involved in a variety of work and work closely with other teams.
I spend a lot of time building my internal network because whenever you join a new firm, you end up getting to know people around the firm so you can refer back to them. That's really exciting too.
Claire Cheung: Excellent. So is your team currently hiring, and what are your expansion plans?
Evelina Panchal: The team has huge plans. There's always a transitional period because Blick’s invested in a couple of firms last year, and there's been some integration. Now we are consolidating and planning for the future. We are always on the lookout for good, talented people. So yes, if anyone wants to come and have a chat with me, they are very welcome to consider joining us.
Claire Cheung: Thank you. It's been amazing speaking to you, Evelina. You have offered so much, a lot of tips that others may not be exposed to. We really appreciate the time you've spent with us, and we look forward to speaking again.
Evelina Panchal: No problem. It's a pleasure. It's always nice to share experiences. Thank you so much.
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